Welcome Not Shirley. Never walked in your shoes, but I know the WT doctrine and history better than the elders of your last congregation. Be certain that I feel your pain. Look forward to your posts.
never a jw
JoinedPosts by never a jw
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new member- my story
by AndDontCallMeShirley in"that which can be asserted without evidence, can.
be dismissed without evidence.
" - christopher hitchens.
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Apostates are blown out of the water by an elder's response to my e-mail
by never a jw inthe following are two emails (one mine, one from an elder) that are part of an exchange regarding the unfairness of shunning.
he is an elder and a substitute of the c.o.
he comes from a "highly decorated" family of jw's.
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never a jw
AnnOMaly,
You are right, that's as far as I can go. Here's the very last e-mail I sent
Mr. Elder,
As an avid student of the WT history and doctrine, especially anything related to the 1914 prophecy, I can assure you that most arguments don't boil down to opinion. But if you are avoiding the issue "for a good reason" I must give it a rest.
Just like in the Good Brahmin story by Voltaire, there are people today whose sole purpose is the pursuit of happiness. You may be able to handle that kind of life. I can't. Principle and truth are more important to me.
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Voltaire's "Story of the Good Brahmin" is an eloquent defense of the lowly philosopher. On the one hand, the Brahmin is upset that so much time pondering the big questions has left him nowhere; but on the other hand, he wouldn't trade places with his happy but unknowing neighbor. Here's a condensed version of the story, lifted from Durant's Story of Philosophy:"I wish I had never been born!" the Brahmin remarked.
"Why so?" said I.
"Because," he replied, "I have been studying these forty years, and I find that it has been so much time lost...I believe that I am composed of matter, but I have never been able to satisfy myself what it is that produces thought. I am even ignorant whether my understanding is a simple faculty like that of walking or digesting, or if I think with my head in the same manner as I take hold of a thing with my hands...I talk a great deal, and when I have done speaking I remain confounded and ashamed of what I have said."
The same day I had a conversation with an old woman, his neighbor. I asked her if she had ever been unhappy for not understanding how her soul was made? She did not even comprehend my question. She had not, for the briefest moment in her life, had a thought about these subjects with which the good Brahmin had so tormented himself. She believed in the bottom of her heart in the metamorphoses of Vishnu, and provided she could get some of the sacred water of the Ganges in which to make her ablutions, she thought herself the happiest of women. Struck with the happiness of this poor creature, I returned to my philosopher, whom I thus addressed:
"Are you not ashamed to be thus miserable when, not fifty yards from you, there is an old automaton who thinks of nothing and lives contented?"
"You are right," he replied. "I have said to myself a thousand times that I should be happy if I were but as ignorant as my old neighbor; and yet it is a happiness which I do not desire."
This reply of the Brahmin made a greater impression on me than anything that had passed.
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Thank you for your time Mr. Elder
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"They went out from us, but they were not of our sort..." - worst ever scripture to lead an anti-apostate talk?
by cedars inthe program for the 2013 convention series has been drawn to my attention.
here is a link to it.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&output=html&pub=co-pgm13&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.
there is a saturday morning symposium on "apostates.
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never a jw
Hi Cedars, Is that the Saturday schedule. Is is the district convention or the circuit convention. I ask you this because my wife (a JW), who knows very well my opposition to the WT was very interested in attending with my two children a different circuit convention in English (ahead of the convention for their Spanish congregation). She and my kids normally attend Spanish meetings and conventions. I wonder if she wanted my bilingual kids to hear those speeches in their first language (English). They only attended the Saturday part of the convention. I found the whole thing odd, but didn't try to search for anything.
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Email "Hey Mr. X, We Had A Elder Read A Spoof Story From The Platform!" ROFLMAO!
by ÁrbolesdeArabia indid you ever have elders forget to due their due diligence and read fake stories from the platform?
i got a great email i need to format about several stupid elders and ministerial servants who read spoof jw urban legends from the platform.
big brother said one of the clowns did this while the c.o.
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never a jw
Not only do they read fake stories, they make them up too. About a year ago a speaker used as an introduction something like this:
"Some people went searching for the devil to interview him. They went to Vegas, nothing. They went to San Francisco, nothing. They went to ...(some other "sinful" city, I forget), nothing. They came back and found him outside at the door of the kingdom Hall. When they asked the devil why he was there and not in Vegas or San Francisco where they expected him to be, the response of the devil was " I already got everyone else, it is the people inside Kingdom Halls that I haven't been able to get to serve me"
Yes, it hapenned!!!
A bit off subject, but I keep reading "Andre". Anyone can bring the "light" on the "Andre" story? I will take a link if the response is too long.
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Apostates are blown out of the water by an elder's response to my e-mail
by never a jw inthe following are two emails (one mine, one from an elder) that are part of an exchange regarding the unfairness of shunning.
he is an elder and a substitute of the c.o.
he comes from a "highly decorated" family of jw's.
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never a jw
My reaction to his e-mail posted at the beginning Mr. Elder XXXX, You missed the point altogether. My email was not interested in defending apostates' character or their way of life. I reiterate my question: Do they have valid arguments regarding the dozens of issues they have raised against the WT? Without resorting to attacks to the messenger, can you argue successfully against their message regarding 587 vs 607, the U.N. debacle, medical directive inconsistency with doctrine (blood fractions), Bible translation, Bible interpretation, history revisionism, misquoting, quoting out of context, quoting from questionable sources, double standards (Malawi vs. Mexico), unfairness of shunning against those who were raised in the truth, and baptised at a young age, but later disagree with WT doctrine, etc, etc.. I believe this is the fourth or fifth time you avoid a direct and a specific question. I have to assume that you don't have a good answer. [the other unanswered questions deserve a thread of their own] . Never a JW . . His answer to the e-mail above (I didn't add anything, nor did I change a single character, only my name and his have been changed) Dear Never a JW I do not have a good answer to those questions because I have not taken the time to study them in detail.
I have, however, many times studied similar issues in detail and have always arrived at the same conclusion: they boil down to matters of opinion that cannot be unconditionally proven true or false. That is the state of things.
This may sound like I'm avoiding the issue, and I am, in a sense. But I have a good reason for it.
To me, the evidence that the Bible is the Word of God is so overwhelming that I choose to devote my energies to understanding it better, and gaining a closer relationship with God rather than spending that time looking into the issues you mention. Time is limited, and, to use a quote think I used before: "If you would love life, take care of how you use your time. For time is the stuff that life is made of."
They say some people cannot see the forest for the trees. I consider many of these issues to be the trees, and I will not allow them to cloud my clear thinking ability, just as you will not allow the Watchtower publications to cloud yours. And that is as it should be.
I know you will find fault with something I have written above. And that is as it should be as well. Mr. Elder XXXX -
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Apostates are blown out of the water by an elder's response to my e-mail
by never a jw inthe following are two emails (one mine, one from an elder) that are part of an exchange regarding the unfairness of shunning.
he is an elder and a substitute of the c.o.
he comes from a "highly decorated" family of jw's.
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never a jw
Tylinbrando,
The name of the thread was sarcastic as sarcastic can get.
Snare & Racket, and everyone who have posted their reactions,
I am saving your responses in my 1/2 million digital pages of what's wrong with the WT.
Thank you all for your very passionate responses. Even though I know the WT history and doctrine as well as you do, I didn't think the thread was going to upset you so much. Then again, I never walked in your shoes and, as an outsider who has never been personally hurt by the WT, my analysis of the WT tends to be mostly objective. Obviously, I haven't completely processed the extent of the pain and suffering that many of you have gone through.
There's a prequel and a sequel to these e-mails. I will post the sequel in my next comment here, but if anyone suggests to dedicate a special thread we can try that too
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Apostates are blown out of the water by an elder's response to my e-mail
by never a jw inthe following are two emails (one mine, one from an elder) that are part of an exchange regarding the unfairness of shunning.
he is an elder and a substitute of the c.o.
he comes from a "highly decorated" family of jw's.
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never a jw
The following are two emails (one mine, one from an elder) that are part of an exchange regarding the unfairness of shunning. He is an elder and a substitute of the C.O. He comes from a "highly decorated" family of JW's. They have it all, elders, C.O., bethelite lawyers, even one black sheep who was disfellowshipped many years ago and never came back.
My e-mail with questions below Dear Mr Elder, Sorry for the extra e-mail but I just couldn't let it go. "the problem with them is selfishness", you wrote. [this line is quoted from a previous e-mail] Apostates are "unhappy", or "not pleasant people" according to some other JW's that I personally know. The WT also hurls other hateful labels and descriptions such as. "mentally diseased", "like a dog that returns to its vomit" and many more. Question for you to ponder: Why is it that the Watchtower and JW's never defend successfully from the valid criticism of the apostates in a myriad of subjects?Most responses I hear or read from them are ad hominem attacks. Occasionally I read a defense of 607 B.C. or Creation, or the U.N. scandal, but it always falls short. Challenge for you: After April 15 I can breathe again. Would you then be able to set aside the argumentum ad hominem and direct me to, or offer me a valid argument on any of the dozens of issues that have been raised by the apostates? Have a good weekend. Never a JW HIS RESPONSE below (tell me if he is addressing my questions) Dear Never a JW,
Well, no.
I do not think apostates are all those things you mentioned. They're just like we all are, good in some things and bad in others.
But, for the most part, their actions tell me they are not following Jesus example or teachings. For example, many of them have indeed re-adopted false doctrines. Others have stopped caring about the public in general and no longer witness about God's truths as they used to before. And as for the Christian command of meeting together, they don't.
There are many reasons for which a person might stop being a Witness, and that is as it should be. Millions of people have stopped attending religious services in many different denominations, because they have had a change of heart. But the fact that it happens does not prove their former faith to be wrong.
Likewise, a person who stops being a Witness has not "finally seen the light", they have simply had a change of heart, and that is as it should be. They have let themselves be convinced of another truth.
We each need to decide what "truth" we will believe. Let us hope (and pray) we have found the real truth. Mr Elder I asked only 2 direct and specific questions. Did the elder ever answer those questions?? There's more quite interesting stuff in subsequent e-mails -
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The ten most embarrassing scriptures for Jehovah's Witnesses
by slimboyfat in1. mark 7:15 "there is nothing from outside a man that passes into him that can defile him; but the things that issue forth out of a man are the things that defile a man.. so how can eating black pudding or having a blood transfusion be a sin?.
2. roman 14:5 one [man] judges one day as above another; another [man] judges one day as others; let each one be convinced in his own mind.
so how come they say birthdays and festivals are a sin?.
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never a jw
Thank you AnnOMaly,
As you may suspect, I love COJ's book The Gentile Times Reconsidered, but I have always struggled with the biblical part in his book, I have even "shunned" that section for a while. You just caused my own "mental lightbulb to flicker into life". No more shunning.
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Jehovahs Witnesses An Organization?
by Marvin Shilmer injehovahs witnesses an organization?.
today i added a new article to my blog addressing a particularly dirty trick played on jehovahs witnesses.
it has to do with watchtowers legal maneuvering to place and keep its harsh religious shunning practice beyond reach of secular law enforcement.
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never a jw
Hey Marvin Good site. I read the blood part. Very good except that you keep writing alter instead of altar
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A question about lying and the Jehovah's Witnesses
by Change Name ini have seen questions regarding how much jehovah's witnesses lie all the time on yahoo answers.
here is the latest question:.
jehovah's witnesses, is lying at any time something jehovah approves of?.
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never a jw
Change Name
The following quote is from the Watchtower to the public October 2011, page 27. It is the most flagrant, bold, deliberate, shameless LIE in recent times coming from the Watchtower.
"What did their analysis reveal? While not all of these sets of lunar positions match the year 568/567 B.C.E., all 13 sets match calculated positions for 20 years earlier, for the year 588/587 B.C.E... Clearly, much of the astronomical data in VAT 4956 fits the year 588 B.C.E. as the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar II. This, therefore, supports the date of 607 B.C.E. for Jerusalem’s destruction—just as the Bible indicates."You sound sincere, why don't you do your own research. I am not a JW, but I decided to test the assertions quoted above. I used the same astronomical program the WT used and I can assure you that their LIE is so flagrant, but they trust that you guys will never go through the trouble of testing the information in the article, which is filled with lies, misinformation, misquoting and deception.
Of all 36 astronomical observations I tested from the tablet VAT 4956, only 2 failed for year 568/567 BCE, which is the accepted year by all scholars in the relevant fields. Regarding WT year (588/587 BCE), all planetary observations fail miserably, all intervals (times between the sun and the moon settings and rising) failed too, and only seven lunar observations are a match. When you use a stringent criterion, then all of them fail.
What I liked about my research is that I relied on the most reliable sources that anyone can have: the predictable movement of the planets, the moon and the sun, which move independently of human will, wish or agenda.
This research nailed it for me:
"THE WATCHTOWER LIES DELIBERATELY"